we do that numerous times. >> i worked the graveyard shift. i spent all night chasing some drunk guy out of the pool. >> we told willie to stay inside on vacation. couldn't keep him in. "morning joe" begins live with mikka and joe. >> unless the president gets off of the obsession with raising taxes. >> obsession to raise taxes. >> obsession to raise taxes. . >> you need jobs and you're not going to get them until the president of the united states has the tax obsessions. >> that explains the new cologne, taxes, from calvin klein -- only if you make over $200,000. >> terrible. it's tuesday, july 19. we're taking a look at times query. we're in los angeles this morning. with us back in new york, we have a host of people. >> it's crazy. >> ridiculous. >> why are with here?

>> the night of 1,000 stars. >> we shouldn't have come in so early. >> we have mike barnicle. if that's not enough, we have msnbc political analyst and former presidential candidate, talk about palm beach's favorite, pat buchanan. and also msnbc political analyst and jersey professor at nyu, harold ford jr., progressive correspondent for the national journal, major garrett. and former communications director for george w. bush. >> oh, nicole. >> she's got a new novel out. it's called "joe". >> it's not called joe. >> her novel 18 acres now out in paperback, but there is more to come on that. >> a lot more to come. and we're talking, of course, today, we're talking a lot about the debt deal, two weeks away right now from the debt deal being done. mike barnicle, a lot of pointing fingers, a lot of yelling and back and forth. is this still going to get done? >> you know, joe, we talk endlessly about what they call

the debt limit. i want to talk about the patience limit. that's the patience of the american public that's run out long ago on the people in washington who can't figure out you've got to get something done, get it done. >> it's unbelievable. and pat buchanan, there's a growing center. and i'm telling you, washington, d.c. is creating a growing center. i wrote an op-ed in "politico," tour vote party is up. i've never had more of a positive response. people are disgusted on both sides by republicans and democrats that work within a system that seems to promote this type of failure. you can go back to your corners and say, boy, i beat the hell out of the other side. >> that's right, joe. i think the polls show that washington is in disrepute, both parties, the president's higher than the other. but he's not high himself. and the united states and the great crisis going on in europe and going on in america, we're approaching one, it's unable to

do anything. i think something is going to get done, quite frankly, boehner and cantor met with the president secretly on sunday at the white house. they're moving ahead. >> harold ford, are we going to get a deal? >> i think we will. contrast this with mike barnicle, to use baseball analogies. think about the guy who caught jeter's ball. he gave the ball back. and we praised him. and there was a time in american culture and, pat, you would have a great er appreciation for so much of this that this is the right thing to do, we would haven't applauded anyone, give the ball back. you caught the ball to mickey mantle, you give the ball back if it were a record ball. democrats in congress, democrats and republicans, largely republican freshmen who are unwilling to transcend and be bigger in this moment to say the right thing in this country is to accept a deal to reduce spending for the long term, ensure the debt limit is paid and make sure we don't face the

potential c potential catastrophe in having our debt limit downgraded. >> the president has to understand, his people have to understand, despite the short-term flash polls, in the end, regardless of the intrance dense of the american public, he'll get judged for not getting the deal done. the freshmen will lose some elections, the republican brand may be tarnished, so, too, will his brand, washington's brand. it hurts everyone. >> there are economic risks and political risks. the first time i've been in washington watching them knowingly risk the economics of the country. economics causes problems for politicians and politicians are causing problems with the economy. with volatility, with unease. people are wondering, is a deal going to get done. i think a deal will be done.

what you're going to see this week is a house on this plan, it will go to the senate and die. senate democrats won't take it up. it will be procedural votes in the senate, all of which will be calisthenics to next week where mcconnell and reid will fashion this thing to get 70 votes or so in the senate, arrive with political philosophy in the house. as the debt line approaches and house republicans are going to have a big choice -- they picked this fight with the president for a reason, the debt limit is not going to be raised unless we do something on the deficit projections now and in to the future. but the problem with the house republicans is, they never answered affirmatively in a politically sa political politically saliable way what the a the answer should be. you have to have a plan that can pass both chambers and the president can sign. otherwise, you're talking past the other party. >> the question is, nicole, what is republican position right

now? at the end of last week, we had republican leaders on in the house, guys i like very much personally. been a champion of paul ryan. back from the time i met him, in 1994. but we ask, what do you want? and their position was, it's not enough to close the tax loopholes. we've got to cut tax rates, income tax rates for individuals and corporations. that's not going to happen in 2011. they know it's not going to happen. i say, okay, let's say you got that done, would that be enough? then paul ryan said, no. we need a fundamental transformation of medicare and social security. that's not going to happen. not with a democratic president and a democratic congress. and they know that. i mean, inunderstand edmond burke has been dead for a few centuries. but at the same time, krauthamer said this week, there has to be

realism on the republican side injected in this debate. $3 trillion in cuts for $1 trillion of closing of tax loopholes. what is the republican position right now? what do they want to make this deal happen? >> i listen to voices like senator tom coburn in the senate, someone with pretty sterling conservative credentials. if you listen to him talk about his willingness, you know, of up to five to seven days ago to support closing some of the loopholes, which is what the obama white house is talking about, he always thought that would be accompanied by a lowering of those corporate and personal tax rates. so i think what we have is a classic failure to communicate. i think that the obama white house is saying one thing, the republicans are hearing another. and what strikes me, two things, one, never have i seen a debate disintegrate from on so high to so low. it was ten days ago that they were talking about an historic deal that would have a

generational impact in cutting the debt, raising the debt, doing so much. now we're talking about doing the bare minimum. this is why people are disgusted with washington. and, too, there are no more orbiters of reality in washington anymore. >> there are not. >> the policy makers and the politicians are talking about bringing the economy to the brink. and people hardly believe them. and that is really frightening. >> that's depressing. >> when i was in congress, i'll say it, when you were in politics, you and i always have the luxury of having sort of the old guard republican party that we could kick around. but at the end of the day, would drag us to the table on our side and say, okay, okay, we're going to get those conservative cuts and in exchange, we're going to -- we'll let you play bridge to the democratic party. there -- there is -- that does not exist in washington, d.c. anymore. you've got 90 or so freshmen running around. you've got michelle bachmann

leading in a lot of presidential polls. the republican establishment is dead. you said this for sometime. but this is where it lands us two weeks out from an economic disaster. who's going to pull everything together on the republican side? >> in a way, joe, i blame the president. the president did brilliantly in december. he walked in there and said harry reid, get out of the way, you're not going to get the republicans to go along with raising taxes. give him that, i'm going for don't ask, don't tell. i'm going for -- the president of the united states won six out of ten in that end of the year. hi said you have a tea party problem. they're not going to raise taxes. go to boehner and cantor and say give me some biden spending cuts and give me the debt ceiling and let's get this thing done. they could have done that four weeks ago. they kept thinking, let's beat up the tea party until they give way and they're beating on guys that aren't going to give way.

>> let me ask you a question -- is anybody here struck by the fact that we've been carrying on for the debt limit as you indicated three, four, five weeks in a country where people are obsessed with the jobs picture. you don't hear people in washington standing up going on for three, four, five weeks about unemployment. >> not in a way you expect with two missed recovery summers. hopes of a recovery this summer yet to materialize. economic indicators suggest it may be turning in the wrong direction. but, those tea party-inspired republicans, they believe there's a larger economic context to this fight. that's one of the reasons they're locking in. look, if we don't deal with this problem now, if we don't cut spending from their perspective, our economic destiny is going to be less optimistic than it is now. >> major, they are correct. that's one of the real problems here is that if a bigger deal is not done, say the mcconnell

deal, it pushes it down the road and blames the president. we've got serious, serious economic consequences with the european union basically in flames economically. >> the front page of the journal echoes and reinforces joe's point that -- and makes the point that major made. here we are in the united states that we're actually forcing the united states congress is creating this unnecessary challenge. now, i can expect you blaming the president. i can't agree with you, the facts are off. when you look back to 2010 after the election, obama stepped forward and extended the bush tax cuts. going to extend the payroll tax cut. going to create one way to extend the employment benefits. going to extend don't ask don't tell. that's a lot to get done. obama made a change. why is it that the tea party unwilling to accept a three-for-one exchange. $3 of spending cuts and less

than $1 of tax cuts. tax revenue is on the wealthiest of americans. at the end of the day, philosophically, we said yesterday, republicans are deciding, the house republicans, to protect the wealthiest of americans. >> you can beat them to death if you want it to, but it's the fact -- it's reality. the president of the united states, you've got to look at reality and say look, these guys in transit, we'll going to have to bypass them and do what we can do. he failed to do that. he kept beating them up and beating them up. >> didn't have an american, pat. >> you can call him un-american if you want. but you can beat those guys to the pulp. >> the president not being born in america, the tea party. >> but, look, realize what you're dealing with, harold? you're dealing with some tough -- >> you're dealing with people with more interest in ideology than governing. >> they believe you're prescribing something that will kill the country if you raise taxes and they're not going to do it and deal with that reality. >> so the reality is that the

guys -- their income is 15%. they're paying less percentage in taxes on their enormous wealth. >> you know how they deal with that, mike? here's what you deal with. get this deal done and guo to boehner and those guys and say let's go after the hedge funds guys, get rid of all of this. we'll drop rates. you'll get every republican with you. >> we can govern. >> see, we can govern. >> that's a frightening thought. >> that is a frightening thought. >> i got a little sick to my stomach. >> guyses on the ballot. >> we might be doing a little better. we're going to continue this. here are the voices out of washington as well as your piece, which is really good this week. but first, before we go to a break, there are new developments surrounding the scandal threatening rupert murdoch. >> can you believe this story? >> unbelievable. >> this story keeps growing. >> it's sort of engulfing different facets of the world. and you can't imagine that it wouldn't come to the united states. >> the guy shows up dead.

jude law is now a part of this? in a serious angle that brings this scandal to the united states. >> first, rupert murdoch and his son are preparing to appear before parliament today. police are arresting 11 people since the hacking and bribery allegations emerged including the ceo rebecca brooks who heads to parliament today. uk police being questioned by parliament. they're under scrutiny for failure to investigate previous hacking incidents and alleged ties to executives in murdoch's companies. and "the new york times" reports that aides close to the murdoch family spent years and millions of dollars covering up wrongdoing at the now defunct "news of the world," the "times" cites interviews with hundreds of current and former employees say "the news of the world" paid police for information. and a twist to the story, a reporter and the scandal's

first-named whistleblower was found dead yesterday. there's an ongoing investigation but police say the death is, quote, not suspicious. "the guardian" newspaper is reporting that police found a bag in the trash near rebecca brooks' home saying the bag contained a computer, phone, and paperwork. detectives are examining the bag. cnbc reports that murdoch is considering stepping down as news corp. ceo. he could be placed by current chief operating officer, chase carey. meanwhile, standard & poor's now says it may cut the company's credit rating, citing increased business and reputation risks. the agency is warning news corp. stock drops to a six-month low. >> and to follow up on this jude law story -- >> yeah. >> back in 2003 when he was filming a movie over it here, his phone --

>> there are allegations that his voice mail was packed into and -- >> in new york. >> and the very information that was on the voice mails ended up -- >> so now he's talking about a lawsuit and, of course, we also have reports yesterday that they've been paying out millions and millions of dollars over the past five, six, seven years settling these cases quietly. >> of course. >> a lot of allegations going on. but this justice department brings this investigation to the united states and at that point, it really does explode. and i guess the question is, pat buchan buchanan, you've been in the press for a long time. you have -- you have talked about how it is for a lot of people on the left. but even supporters of rupert murdoch would have to say -- a guy who's been nice to you through the years, that it's going to be really hard for him to survive? >> joe, yeah. he has been very gracious to me throughout the years. i like the man. but i tell you, there's no doubt

if it leaps the atlantic, i think the murdoch empire and great britain is coming down. if it leaps the atlantic to the united states, it's really big trouble. and i feel sorry for murdoch going up against the parliamentary committee because it's going to be very, very tough on him. i don't know if he had anything to do with it. but this is aucwfully high up, joe. it's reached to murdoch's son and the prime minister's office in great britain. this is going to metastasize. >> you hear all of the talk in the press about the murdoches, the murdoches, the murdoches. they don't run the company by themselves. there is a board. and at some point, they're going to tell the murdochs this type of dynasty did not work in egypt. it's not going to work in news corp. you're going to have to step down. and i suspect that you're going to see -- i agree with pat. i don't see how the murdoch family survives this. i don't see how the sons take

over the empire. this keeps exploding oochlgt. >> -- exploding. >> a couple of things, the brand has been damaged irreparably already, whatever comes across the states here and the department of education continues, whatever, their brand has been damaged irreparably. the second thing is the independent directors of this country may have great affection for rupert murdoch and maybe even his family, his son and daughter who are in the line of succession. but there's a thing called market cap. when you're losing a quarter of your market capitalization in a few weeks because of this, the independent directors of this company are going to stay, maybe it's time for a change at the top. >> usually, most scandals you will have an explosion and you will have a response. and you'll be able to find quickly where the bottom is. this keeps going, every day,

something else comes out. and i suspect if we have another week of these type of allegations growing, i think murdoch has to step down because of the stock. and how much money has this company lost in the past -- >> every day this story continues to grow. coming up, former white house press secretary ar ri fleischer will be here. ron johnson, and chuck todd with news out of the white house. up next, the first look at the top stories in the politico playbook. plus, can we see warren facing off with brown for a seat in massachusetts. >> great to see that. >> you can see that. that story in a moment. but first, to bill karins with a check on the forecast. >> did you see we had another nice haboob in the phoenix area. we can chuckle. it's not fun. it's a wall of dust that went right through downtown phoenix.

historic one three weeks ago. this is the second one in a month. and this one has left its mark. 40 mile-per-hour wind gusts and a lot of dirt. as far as the forecast, the heat wave is the story. all week long. temperatures are hot around the country. we're going to see 100-degree heat once again in the middle of the day, jim. if you're lucky, you'll get a thunderstorm. just to let you know what's coming in dc, this is going to be a ridiculous end to the week. thursday, friday, saturday, each and every day, temperature of 100. and it will be humid on top of that. more about that as the week moves on. you're watching "morning joe." i have astigmatism. so my old contact lenses would sometimes move out of place

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luke like the rest of america, i was geeking out to see the epic adventure of the child hero in the adorable glasses who's man kind's only hope -- sarah palin. i saw her in the documentary of her life -- "the undefeated." also, looking forward to seeing that harry potter movie. apparently, that came out this weekend too. they really should have advertised it. you know what? these two would make a great double feature. because both movies are about outsiders plucked by an old wizard. >> welcome back to "morning joe," it's 25 minutes past the hour. time to look at the morning papers. start with "the wall street journal" borders, the largest bookstore chain in the country said it will liquidate to find a

buyer. they're closing all 400 stores, all of border's nearly 11,000 employees will lose their job. >> we'll go to "the boston globe" which you're looking at. there's the border's story. they're forced to liquidate. it's remarkable how amazon.com has changed the landscape on so many fronts. the landscape politically in massachusetts may be shifting as well. mike barnicle has been talking about this for sometime. elizabeth warren is leaving washington and returning home to massachusetts where she'll spend early august trying to figure out whether to run against senator scott brown. here's what she had to say about it yesterday on andrea mitchell reports. >> i've been working 14 hours a day trying to stand this consumer agency up for really more than a year now. it's been wonderful work, but it's been all-absorbing work. massachusetts does beckon in the sense that it's my home and i need to go home. and when i go home, i'll do more thinking then.

but i need to do that thinking not from washington. i need to go home. >> mike barnicle, you talk about running for senate. what's it look like? how strong is scott brown from massachusetts right now? >> scott brown is strong in massachusetts for a republican. she would be a strong contender against him, based on the numbers, the registration. three-to-one democratic. she's articulate. she's got a huge issue to play with in terms of voters' interests. and that's, you know, consumer debt, taking care of you, your homeowners, you know, how do you get a mortgage, stuff like that. she would be strong, joe. >> it would be fascinating. >> interesting race. >> it would be an interesting race. i think we know where the wall street money would go. >> exactly. >> go right now to jim with the "politico playbook." we hear the name chris christie

possibly running for president. a lot of republicans saying they're not pleased with the field. but the new jersey adamant, he's not going to run for president. he's still trying to change his mind. >> they're going to beg him. >> who's still pushing him to get in to the race? >> there's a delegation every couple of weeks to see him. he's going to new york to meet with the billionaire founder of home depot, who organized a group of moderate liberal republican donors who are going to try to persuade the governor one again to get to the race. they're going to say there's money, there's a clear route to victory if you work to jump in. there's a very popular chatter with a lot of donors. i think it's really important to note that a lot of the big bundlers, a lot of the bigger donors in the party have not rallied around any of the candidates, including mitt romney yet. there is a window. people think christie could fill that window. obama is beatable. they like the profile of

christie. he's the type of guy who could beat obama and unite the party. >> the mess in washington only feeds to chris christie's brand, doesn't it? >> absolutely. governor christie is the republican fantasy candidate. he's the guy who, you know, certainly as the gravitas to stand toe-to-toe with president obama. e's a straight talker that matches the times. he's willing to take on all of the sacred cows. you talk about the third rails in politics, this is a guy who limps with both arms wrapped around the third rails of american politics and squeezes them tight and seems to relish doing so. so i think he's exactly -- he's not only someone that we all fantasize as the best person to beat president obama. but his policies, the agenda, the things he's doing in a state like new jersey are the prescription for the country as a whole in the view of most republicans. >> pat buchanan, what do you think? chris christie? >> i don't think he plays in iowa, joe. i think he would have to win new hampshire and he goes down to south carolina where seems to me like tough territory for him.

he's a tough capable guy, but i don't know -- i'm not sure he plays nationally and i'm not sure he's making the right decision staying out. >> let's talk about the mitch mcconnell plan. it seems to me -- i understand why he's doing it. it's shrewd politically. but it's an absolute sellout to the conservative values that got republicans in power in the house in 2010. a lot of conservatives on the hill are upset about this plan, aren't they? >> on the hill and off of the hill. the club for growth, the red state. a lot of the organizes are going to come out this morning to tell any republican who votes for that compromise, the contingency plan, they'll hold it against them in the election, they will not support those candidates. that will supply a tremendous amount of pressure on the candidates who could have a tough primary challenge in their district and in their state. it shows that the math on this

one is very difficult. yes, you could probably get it through the senate because it looks like reid could bring every democrat along. it's not clear you can get it through in the house. there's a big contingency of house republicans who feel very strongly that that's the wrong way to go and it's the wrong thing to do. and they get -- the main stream media is really ridiculed this group of republicans as being out there. but when you talk to them, they're very authentic in their belief that that's what they ran on. they promised not to lift the debt ceiling, not to increase debt or taxes and willing to lose their jobs over it. that's what john boehner is confronting. >> by the way, jim, you heard this, i heard this. started to talk about this on this show back in january when they got sworn in, they were talking about this vote nine months ago -- eight months ago. >> exactly. >> anybody who acts shocked today that they're dragging their heels, just wasn't listening because from the day they get sworn in, they said we're not going to raise the

debt ceiling unless there are a lot of cuts. so official washington should have seen this coming before the middle of july. >> you know, joe, this is why -- this is why the president did the right thing sunday calling down boehner and cantor down to the white house to see it immediately. those guys are going to do it, it ain't going to get done. >> jim, thank you very much. talk to you soon. we'll be reading from the politico. come ing up a little later, is the cia operating a secret prison in somalia? the nation's jeremy skahill about his piece. keep it here on "morning joe. [ p.a. announcer ] announcing america's favorite cereal

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>> 36 past the hour. a live look at l.a.x. we're reporting from los angeles this morning. welcome back to "morning joe." a quick look at the news. "the new york times," we're learning more about president obama's nomination to lead the

consumer protection bureau. richard cordray of ohio is a five-time "jeopardy!" champion. in 1987, he walked away with more than $47,000. at the time he told alex trabeck he had no idea what he would do with the money. >> elizabeth was not going to get that. wall street didn't want it. conservatives didn't want it. >> i don't want him in there because then he can't function, which is what they'd like. >> okay. >> more news? >> miss opinion. >> on that. >> you know it's true. >> they don't want it at all. if they can keep people out, it won't happen. >> docked from the international space station for the last time. "atlantis" crew members are going through the final inspections of the heat shield

before their return home to earth. "atlantis"'s final landing is thursday morning. they timed it as they do to land during the way to earth. >> very nice. >> willie has a close connection, not only with shirts but also with nasa. >> okay. officials in philadelphia are planning a new crackdown on those who walk and text. >> walk and text? >> what's wrong with that? and bike and text. >> remember the time you were on the phone texting and you jogging and you ran into a parked car. >> i was running. >> that's the problem. >> that's my problem, apparently. it's part of the new give respect-get respect campaign. they're targeting cyclists who run red light and run on the sidewalk. since launching in may -- >> there you go. >> that's like -- you like that barnicle? >> i do. >> almost get -- >> no, these bicycle -- these

bicycle messages, they're dangerous. they're dangerous. >> get off my lawn! >> they're a me nailes. >> menace to society. >> they shoot through red lights. >> a real threat. >> yeah! >> no threat -- i can tell you that. >> it's like -- >> unbelievable. >> barnicle -- >> the debt ceiling in the backpacks. just get congress to solve this problem. >> barnicle, when he's in philadelphia, he pays a lot for those four season and ritz suites. he doesn't want bicyclists from the other side of the road working. >> trying to make a buck. >> who needs that coming out of the four seasons? >> exactly. >> come ing up next, we're going to be looking at this morning's must-read opinion pages. >> going to

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the debt limit changes almost 100 times in the years. the seven times in the bush administration. all it does is slow down the process. diverts people's energy, changes

their posture. the way to take down the debt is to limit your expenditures. to have the artificial limit which gets raised in the end disrupt the activities in an important way in congress periodically i think it's a waste of congress's time. >> welcome back to "morning joe." we have a couple of months we need to get to. let's start with citizen murdock. >> this sums it up in some way. as for murdoch, he set the tone for his newspapers just as surely as henry the ii was responsible for thomas becket's murder. will no one rid me of the turbulent priest? the political class has turned against him, celebrities too. and he had to kill "the news of

the world," a revoting scandal sheet he much adored. there is no sadness here, merely just desserts, rose bud, hacking, it amounts to the same thing, it's a rap. >> the fascinating thing is the celebrities, the politicians, a lot of the people when it played in their favor worked murdoch are now turning on him. >> or are too scared. >> back to the budget. the road not taken by david brooks. all of the groups of republicans share the same mentality.

>> mike barnicle, it's so fascinating. you could lift -- you could lift what david brooks just wrote about this republican class and say the same thing about democrats in 2009. they believe they are gods of the new dawn. we talked about it every day. people get elected in washington. they come to washington. and whether the congressman, senators, or presidents, they say this is our time. this -- america is behind us, this is our time and then they push whether it's health care for a year and a half while americans are saying job, or whether it's tax reform as the republicans are pushing now. well america is seeing more jobs, they all miss the central message, it's never their time. it's always america's time. it's always the voter's time. it's never ideologues time. >> joe, you're right. from january of '09, ted kennedy

lived, the health care debate would have been changed dramatically. because he would have cut a deal. it wouldn't have gone on for a year and a half. >> mike, you know why he would have cut a deal? >> he learned what happened when he didn't cut a deal with richard nixon and he remitted it for the next 30 years. >> he remembered something in washington for a decade now, perhaps longer, don't understand. you're sent to washington, fine, to pay attention to the promises you made in the campaign trail, no doubt about that. but get something done for the country and the people they represent. don't tie the system all up. >> nicole, republicans -- if republicans have a chance to trim $4 trillion from the national debt over the next decade, we've got over $50 trillion in liabilities over the next generation, isn't that a deal they have to take if they're going to be responsible? >> anything that seems this obvious to the people sitting

around this table always makes me nervous. the republicans, the grassroots republican in this country truly believe that they sent a new brand of politician to washington in 2010 with the mandate to stop the madness -- to shrink the federal government. and sure everything you say sounds perfectly reasonable and obvious to me. i grow incensed by the unwillingness to sit down and get something done. what the reporting is born out is they believe they're doing exactly what we're talking about as the problem. they believe they're addressing the problem by being the ones to stand in the middle of the road and the train may run them down. they don't care. they think that's why they were sent there, to finally shrink the size and the kos and the inertia of an expanding federal government. >> but there are two sides of this. harold ford senior, two sides of it. you take your hard line and i am i'd logically with the

republican freshmen. like i said, i voted against the debt ceiling being raised to $5 trillion. but you take the hard line for a reason -- you take the hard line and you let them know that you will not vote to raise the debt ceiling until they budge. until they say, okay, okay, we'll meet you in the middle. we will give you $3 trillion in cuts. you close $1 trillion in tax loopholes. let's do the deal. and at that point, you go, i hate it. but i'm going to take it. well, they've got the first part of this equation down. but when are they going to convert that to get the president talking about $4 trillion in cuts? when you convert that hardline to reality, and take the best deal you can get. >> not only, you said it well, joe, said it better than i could say it, not only is the best deal for the republican house, the republican freshmen could get, i think it's an outstanding deal for the country. if i were republican.

the only thing i would be asking at this point is to specify some of the cuts. there's some legitimacy on the part of republicans who complain about that. but to insist that their campaign pledge of no revenue increases has to be honored, at least 87 new members of congress who i respect, i respect their constituents, but they're not indispensable to the process of government or governing. they're an important part of it. and i think they can go home and claim victory unlike any group of congressmen, particularly republican, freshmen congress mep could have with no disrespect to the '94 class. to act and bring about these kinds of cuts would be historic, remarkable, and address the country going forward. i hope they accept it. >> i read now from joe's piece -- the real deal. it's from politico. it's getting a great reaction. he says this --

>> major garrett? i agree with charles krauthamer and with what harold ford just said. charles kra turks t rrks arkra call his bluff. he said it, what happens? we cave in and suddenly it's smoke and mirrors like that terrible deal to end the government shutdown. why don't they call the president's bluff? >> because republicans did not organize themselves for this part of the battle.

they organize themselves for every part of the battle, but the final end game they're not ready for. they're not ready to say to the president, all right, you had three or four press conferences where you talk about the willingnd to take on the issues. write them down. write down what you're going to do on social security, medicare, and take them over to nancy pelosi and harry reid and say do you agree with this? that conversation isn't happening? there's a firestorm going on even about the more relative cut. and next budget year, we don't know what the deal is about at all. >> and, major, if they came forward and said, okay, okay, put together $1 trillion in tax loopholes you'll want to close. that's fine. but at the same time, see what you want to do in entitlement reform, you're right. if republicans had done that, then the story today would be about how the president couldn't control nancy pelosi and harry reid instead of how john boehner can't control the republicans.

>> you don't get the a trade in revenue by closing loopholes, you get a trade in revenue by closing the tax cuts for the wealthy and the loopholes. you have to go through reside e residences. washington is in no mood to touch that right now. >> former white house press secretary ari fleischer. he's in the green room standing by. keep it here on "morning joe." i love that my daughter's part fish. but when she got asthma, all i could do was worry ! specialists, lots of doctors, lots of advice... and my hands were full. i couldn't sort through it all. with unitedhealthcare, it's different. we have access to great specialists, and our pediatrician gets all the information. everyone works as a team. and i only need to talk to one person about her care. we're more than 78,000 people looking out for 70 million americans.

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. all right, put politics on hold for a second. toss things around. look at sports. two nights ago, the bo sox and orioles went 16 innings. you saw that happen. >> i did. >> combined one run then. last night, the bats came alive gametime. 7 in the eighth. dustin pedroia breaking things open. a double to right. three runs clear. bases loaded again. same inning, same drill. carl crawford singling to right. 12-7, 25 runs scored. a touchdown. a few touchdowns in this one. final score, sox, 15-10. the yankees and rays this one in tampa, the top of the eighth. yanks down to run with bases loaded.

eduardo nunez grounding to a possible double play. a hard slide to second. swish would score. this one tied at four. two outs in the ninth. yanks being -- >> swish? >> yeah. you know. russell martin draws the rbi walk. curtis granderson scores the go-ahead run. yankees win that one, 5-4. the a.l. east. stands by a game and a half over the yanks. he wants to say hi. coming up next, ari fleischer and political writer for "the washington post." you're watching "morning joe. boy, i'm glad we got aflac huh.

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the rupert murdoch communications empire is in a lot of trouble because "news of the world," the newspaper in london has been accused now of allegedly hacking in to phones, cell phones, of other people and listening to messages and conversations. so, tonight, ladies and gentlemen, even the royal family -- >> yep. >> even the royal family, even the royal family. so tonight, we have a little segment called scandalous phone call of the night.

welcome back to "morning joe." the view from the top of the rock. nice bug on the camera. we're live in los angeles this morning. back with us in new york, we have mike barnicle, pat buchanan, nicolle wallace, and peter alexander and joining the table, former white house press secretary president george w. bush the head of ari fleischer communications, and republican host sam stein. we'll start off in the hour with the scandal. there's new reports surrounding the scandal as the mogul and his son prepare to appear before parliament today. the police arrested 11 people since the hacking and bribery allegations emerged, including the head of the news international team, rebecca brooks, who heads to parliament today. uk police are questioned by

parliament. they're under scrutiny for failure to investigate hacking attempts. the hearings come as "the new york times" reports today that aids close to the murdoch family spent years and millions of dollars covering up wrongdoing at the now defunct "news of the world." the times cites interviews with dozens of current employees who say news of the world paid police for information. another new twist to the story, a former "news of the world" reporter and the scandal's first named whistleblower was found dead yesterday. there was an ongoing investigation but police say the death is, quote, not suspicious. the guardian newspaper is reporting that british police found a bag in the trash near rebecca brooks' home. they say the bag contained a computer, a phone, and paperwork. the guardian says detectives are

exam anyo examining the bag. rupert murdoch is considering stepping down. he could be replaced by chase carey. meanwhile, standard & poor's saying it may cut the credit rating, citing risks, the agency's warning comes as the stock drops to a six-month low. >> we have ari fleischer here. this is what he does? >> no, not ar ri fleischer communications. >> no, never hacked anyone's phone. >> the phone hacking. >> when you -- when the clients get in trouble, they come to you. and you try to help them out. >> it's what he does. >> it's what he does. >> he only did the phone hacking when he was in the white house. he stopped doing that. >> fascinating. but so, seriously, ari, if you representing murdoch right now, there aren't a lot of options, are there? >> what's your take on the reaction too? >> i'm trying as hard as i cannot to pay any attention to

this. i'm hoping it stays on the other side of the pond and it doesn't affect american holdings. it would be a tragedy if this happened here. >> too late. >> i'd be shocked if the reporters were doing this. >> too late for that. it's coming over here. the justice department is talking about it. but back to my original question. what do you do to defend murdoch and his family to keep them in power there. because it really looks like it's slipping away very quickly. >> i think that's something that's this bad. there's two options. one is you resign quickly. you get it over with, you get on with life. the other is you take your hits and you ride it out and you may have to ride it out for months, if not years. both have worked in the past for people. it depends on your personality. no way to explain what they did. what they did was unethical, illegal, horrible journalism. glad they got caught. >> speaking of journalism. you said, ari, you hope it doesn't affect american holdings, nicolle wallace, in terms of journalism, there could be positive results to the overall scandal after all of the

dust has settled. that could take a long time. what do you think? >> well, i had a third thing they should do. two words -- i'm sorry. i think remorse goes a long way. >> they've done that. >> i don't think you can do it enough. there are new people coming out, new victims of the hacking, new victims of their antics. and i think, you know, an apology for not for public relations purposes but for all of the individuals that were impacted. and i think -- i don't know how their british properties rebuild any journalistic credentials. but i think if you look at the american properties, the fox viewer, the readers of "the wall street journal," they have a special compact with these properties. the whole reason that at the beginning viewers turned to fox was because they didn't trust other sources of broadcast media. so that trust and that integrity is so crucial for murdoch's

american properties. i'm sure everything is being done to protect that compact with their viewers and readings. >> the apology tour is a bit difficult. >> i don't think it works. >> this has been so pervasive for so long. at least with murdoch's bridge holding. >> we've heard yesterday reports that they've been paying off people for years not only to get information from police but also settling lawsuits quietly behind the scenes. >> the equivalent of hush money. a lot will be said today at the parliament when mr. murdoch testifies or at least gives his account of what happened. the apology only does look bad, i think. they apologized in the text in their papers. but nicole is right, the credibility of their holdings in the uk is damaged and i don't see how it can be revealed. and ari is right as well, the goal is to keep this on the other side of the atlantic. the problem is, there are

attacking 9/11 victims. it's atrocious. if the fbi and justice department would have turned something off -- i'm hesitant to see law enforcement to do something like this in the members of the state like i am. if they were to turn something up, i don't see how david can stem the bleeding over here as well. >> if you're hacking in to the 9/11 victims, peter kahne on long island, very conservative republican. most of his voters are "new york post" readers. and he's talking about an investigation. this gets serious. let me ask all of you -- >> by the way, the police right now are testifying before parliament and we'll be waiting for rupert murdoch and his son later today. that's the shot we're looking at. >> live shot. that's going to get tough over there. the investigation goes on. pat buchanan, we talked about this last hour. how does murdoch survive this? i -- because you -- this stock is losing money every day.

this corporation is bleeding tens of millions of dollars. at some point, isn't it an economic decision for he and his family to take the money and get out before their fortune collapses even more? >> what you do in a situation like this is you make a hard determination whether you can survive this or not. if you're not going to survive it, you jump before you're pushed. murdoch is 80 years old. he does not have longevity at this company. he's built a magnificent country, certainly on this side of the atlantic. i agree, it's about dead over there in great britain. it's really -- it's being bombed continualou continuously. what i would do if i were him, if it's not going to survive and he isn't, i'm going to step down before i was pushed and bring together people in this country who could save what i think is a magnificent journalistic empire he's got here in the united states, cut himself away from it. because a lot of the malice and the bitterness and the shouting

is after murdoch personally and they can remove that once it gets out. excuse me, if you put gerald ford in, you'd do better with it right now. >> talk about damage and -- >> buchanan didn't like ford. he fired him. >> this is about damage control and stop the dike of bad press and how to keep it all together. >> that's right. >> no, i know. but the bottom line is, though, i don't think i'm sorry works. i really don't. not in this case. peter, talk a little bit if you could about being a reporter. because if you're a reporter and you bear it down to just being one person who reports on the news, all you've got is the way you do your job. and trust and integrity. that's -- >> there's more. >> like piers morgan, right? >> read his book. he'll show you how to pack. >> yeah, right. you know, if you're -- that's all you've got is your credibility. >> peter has been covering stories for years and years.

he knows a little thing about that. >> did you read what piers morgan said in his book. >> 2006 in the "daily mirror." i covered everything from julian assange and covering stories like that, you hear what they have to say. the remarkable stories came to them all the time. a close point about the apology, the reason you can't do that, my thought is all of a sudden you revisit all of the individuals who they were tapping in to the lines of hacking. these are the families of murder victims, much the same way you made note, joe, the same way they see the 9/11 victim's families here, the disaster that that would be if they brought that to this side of the pond. 51,000 people, i see "the wall street journal's" report i'm curious how they walk the fine line to cover this story. 51,000 employees that have worldwide avenue revenue, i think it says, $32 billion. and for noting what we watch when it happens, the testimony

today, rupert murdoch, pat, you know 80 years old. this is, as it's been reported, as we all know, what his aides for years have been trying to avoid, putting an 80-year-old man before parliament. >> a lot of the people in parliament, these were the guys getting helped throughout these years. >> interesting conversation. >> let me throw this back up to new york, and i'm serious. i bring up piers morgan's name for a reason. he was 28, 29 when he ran "news of the world". is that correct? it's been a while. but yet, that's just, oh, it's rebecca brooks. sam stone, maybe you know this as well. jump in if you do. >> sure. >> when was piers morgan there. and i don't know if you all read that excerpt from his book, but he describes specifically how to hack people's phones. >> new york magazine has picked it up. >> he seems to be bragging about it. i'm curious why there hasn't been more attention to this. it pushes it timeline back 20 years. >> i'm sure.

he was there in '94 and '95 before he went to "the daily mirror." i have raerd the excerpt in his book. it's sort of appalling in some respects that it hasn't been more of an public aspect in this conversation. i know piers morgan addressed it on the show last night. it's only the most apologetic of terms for rupert murdoch saying it's a man that's built a courageous empire and sad to say in this instance. >> in his book, he brags about how to hack into phones and i'm stunned that no one -- forget about piers morgan. i'm stunned that the media hasn't followed this timeline and say, my god, he's joining us in '94 and '95. >> that's not okay. >> this is not the definning feature of this story. it's a story that's been around for four years. people never actually focused on this thing. the reason they have is reporting out of "the guardian," people have been unwilling to let this go. and a lot of help from "the new york times" for picking it up.

>> mike barnicle, this is in piers morgan's book saying in effect, this is being done when he was there in '94 and '95. he hasn't been asked to explain why you hack to people's phones. where's the media on this story saying forget about rebecca brooks. this goes back at least 15 years because piers morgan is bragging about how it's done. >> with the exception of "the gau guardian" as sam pointed out, the media is not interest in this story. elements of it in "the new york times" last fall, other than that, people have taken the pass on it. it might have something to do with the fact -- the fact that you cannot call "the news of the world" journalism. let's stop doing that. it's not a newspaper. it's not journalism or what we do. >> it's against the law. it doesn't matter what you call this, it's against the law. and, again, that's why i'm not

pounding on mr. morgan. i don't know him. i have no opinion of him one way or the other. but i am stunned in the middle of this story, we have a timeline -- i guess as a lawyer, i'm looking at the timeline. you want to see how far back you can take that timeline. and it looks like by his own admission, it goes back to the mid '90s. >> two elements. one is ideological one. in the united states, there's rejoicing in certain circles this is affecting conservative media, "new york post," fox news. >> whoa, whoa, whoa -- >> dancing on the grave, if you will. >> whoa, your -- >> got the plagiarism scandal. so i think that's why you're seeing so much of this. and it's i'd logically focused to one area. there's a bigger point here too. as nicole and i did a lot of clashing with the media, let me defend the american media. they are different. their practices are different, the reporting standards are

different. it's notorious, terrible, run a chi, scandal-based. whatever evidence there is in america, compare nothing to the way the british press does its job. there are standards here. >> let me just say on the legal question, piers morgan looks to me like he's going to be covered by the statute of limitations which is a good thing to have. a lot of folks over there -- >> it is a good thing to have, pat. >> so nice. >> and -- joe, what the problem always is in these zan dolls is not that just you knew about hacking. it's did you lie and obstruct justice? obstruction of justice and perjury. if the folks in london did that and came over here to the entities here, then you're imperilling murdoch's policies here. they want to bring it over here to the usa. this is to bring down murdoch and the empire, especially with the american assets, fox news, "new york post," "wall street journal." >> joe, what pat has just gotten

to is to my mind, the nub of the question of whether it will be asked today or not remains to be seen. but it is this. it has to do with both piers morgan and rebecca brooks, supposedly editors of "news of the world." the idea that an editor of any entity, whether you want to call it news of the world, the newspaper, whatever, any entity, any editor hearing a story, reading a story in his or her print product, not saying to the reporter, "boy, that's quite a story," where did you get it? they never did that. that's preposterous to believe. >> answer the question. if the question was ever asked, there was never any follow-up on it. >> well, let me make a point, though. i agree with ari. we do it differently here. what's happening over there is not the way journalism is practiced here. there are signs that we as americans have to be concerned about in the changing landscape in the journalism world. i love to say this doesn't exist. but recently one of the american television networks bought an

interview from the companies that exist. they exist in britain and go out and buy interviews from the folks. they say, we're going to buy an interview, tell you a story, and we'll market it. the television broadcast, not here in nbc, thank goodness, use the information without confirming details, a mom using botox, they reported, on her young child. >> botox mom. >> remember this story? the facts didn't play out. wasn't true. in america, this isn't happening every day like at "the news of the world," we have to get back to the basics of journalism. >> in america, interviews are bought all the time. >> all the time. >> interview subjects are flown all over the place and given gifts. i's not clean here either. it's for sure. it's not that different. >> it's hideous. >> it is different. >> it is. >> there's another aspect to this over there. not just the hacking. it's these fellows paid off police officers.

and not only paid them off $100 or $20 or something like that, thousands of dollars now. you can't do that without going to the publisher and say can i have $10,000 for what, for what do you want the ten grand for? you can say well, we can find out where he's coming, where he's coming in. we've got the picture, we make $1 million on the newspaper. >> the top two at scotland yard are now out. this is going to lop don this week -- london this weekend to look at the olympics. in one year from now, the world is coming there and scotland yard is in tatters. >> a lot to go. >> thanks, guys. coming up, somalia is becoming the next target on the war on terror. the investigative reporter for the nation, jeremy skayhill. and chief white house correspondent chuck todd. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. my contacts are so annoying. i can't wait to take 'em out.

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what we are witnessing here with this is classic washington kabuki theater. this is duck dodd and dismantle, dismantle if tried to law. but it would require the dismantlement of our social safety net, social security, medicare, and medicaid. >> it makes me feel better that even though leaders in washington are not coming together to plan on the guide of a budget deal, at least they're working on their alliteration, and i think duck, dodge, and dismantle is wonderful alliteration. it's good. and whoever came up with that should be proud of themselves. >> i think it was jay. >> oh sort of fiddling while rome burns. come in from washington chief

white house correspondent. >> i don't think they're fiddling. >> he is. >> little-known fact, along with being a miami hurricanes fan, little known fact, he was piers morgan's number two at "news of the world" in 1994. >> my fifth job. yeah. >> exact hi. >> chuck, there's something else that washington politicians are doing right now, even before the deal blows up. there's -- they're engaging in the blame game. it's almost like you can see them offstage preparing their lines. so when this blows up, they're going to position the other side as the losers. >> right, either that it blows up or the -- the convoluted compromised deal does pass and nobody likes it. you can see nobody likes it. a couple of things going on here. number one, i think the motivation to begin the blame game now by some is a hope that maybe it will talk some of the leaders back to the table.

it will talk them in to doing the big deal. i know that's what the white house thinks that if you keep pushing, it may explain why they met one more time, you know, without telling us until a couple of days later, boehner and cantor are going to the white house. so there's that aspect. and the other is simply trying to explain this. you know, you look at some of the polling and you get the new nbc/"wall street journal" poll coming out later tonight, it's a pretty decisive where this argument is moving and it's clear that the middle of the country -- and i mean this demographically -- electorally, not geographically, is angry with all of washington. so both parties are going to have to have good explanations as to why of all of the bad things washington has been unable to accomplish, right, all of the things they can't accomplish, why they couldn't accomplish this one. a lot of people are paying attention to this story. that's one thing that surprise med in our poll. >> we have a usa-today gallup poll to talk about the president

and congress doing the worst job than previous leaders. but thus far in the debate, the president seems to have gained the upper hand in the cbs news/"new york times" poll we saw a couple of days ago. it looked like the president was far outrating the republicans in the head-to-head in this battle. do you sense that is changing? is everybody now blaming both sides equally? or does the president have the upper hand. >> no, the bully pulpit shows the president has the upper hand. that's a lesson from '95. the bully pulpit versus congress. congress is viewed negatively by the president unless proven otherwise. >> '95 showed that and we're seeing that again. you can't compete with the bully pulpit. >> no matter how mediocre the guy's ratings are. not as if bill clinton was -- he didn't get the 70% job approval ratings until the late '90s. he was hovering -- he was losing to bob dole in head-to-head

matchups. this president is not even doing that yet with romney and a state here, a state there. he's behind. but not overall in the general election. but it's not exactly enormously popular. yet in this contest, when it's him versus the congress. and the white house advisors know that. they know they can pick a fight with congress and look good in comparison. the danger that i think for the president and the danger, i think, obviously for the -- for the republicans who control the house is there are a lot of fedup independents. it sounds like we're beating a dead horse and you talk about this a lot, i talk about this a lot. but it's a growing and growing anger and frustration. the question is, where do the voters go. they've been firing the parties back and forth. what if they fire both? what if there's another -- i mean, it is -- it's what the two parties -- that's the power politically they're playing with here. at some point, the middle is going to wake up and say, you know what?

you both stink. we have to figure out how to get rid of both of you. >> off of that response, let me ask you in terms of firing and hiring, is there any sense within the white house that maybe we should have been spending four, five, six weeks at some point in the last year and a half talking about jobs and employment rather than the debt ceiling? people don't get the debt ceiling. they get that they're out of work? >> yeah. i think people are starting to get the debt ceiling. that's something that i've noticed in all of this polling is that lately they're paying attention which is helpful to those folks who believe the debt ceiling needs to go up. but overall, you know, i think the white house feels a little burnt on this jobs message in this respect. there isn't a lot legislateively that they can do. so at what point they ray torically keep talking about it and don't produce jobs, when does that do to the credibility down the line? that's the messaging problem, frankly, both parties have right

now. because same criticism has been lobbed at this -- at the republicans in congress who said they were going to -- the number one thing they were going to talk about was jobs. they haven't done it. instead they've been talking about the debt. that's fine. that's a big problem. but it is not the number one issue for the public. >> sam, let me ask you about this meeting with cantor and boehner in the white house secretly sunday. it suggests to me thatch you realize, look, the tea party ain't going to be a big deal. he's not going to sign any constitutional amendment that's not going to get through. is the president now working with boehner and cantor on a postconstitutional amendment deal if you will for smaller cuts and the debt ceiling raise? bah it seems to me, the house is the problem. >> yeah. and i think it will play out according to my reporting as this -- they have the mcconnell plan, which is raising the debt ceiling while vetoing cuttings.

as a way to buy into it, they have the republican caucus attract $1.5 trillion in cuts agreed to. so you end up having two pack e packages merge to one, house republicans can say they cut $1.5 trillion in discretionary spending. but no entitlements of the long-term growth of the deficit and debt is still a problem. democrats can say, look, we protected entitlements and had to suck the cuts up. that's that. the president will not be able to raise the debt ceiling. the economy will not go. the treasury will not be forced into a process of default. it's a win/win/win. getting the debt and deficit under control goes unanswered. >> you were there in the white house, as were you, when another president, president bush, cut some deals early on in this administration. the democratic controlled congress. is the degree of difficulty that much greater today in a relatively short period of time?

>> i was there on capitol hill in the mid '90s when the house republicans, senate republicans went through this with bill clinton. it shouldn't surprise anybody that's gotten to this stage and is this late in the game. it's always done this way. what you have now frankly is the republicans with their pass the equivalent to the news conferences. everyone getting in the last statement, the posture, the principled stand. we'll find out at the end of this week, maybe over the weekend whether or not this comes together or not. the problem is, something must come together. i was raised to believe number one, you don't take on debts that you can't pay. if you take on a debt, you pay it. that's the position that the government is in. whether we like it as conservatives or not, we have to get some type of agreement. can something get together? i suspect at the end of the day, meaning this weekend, they're going to get a shorter term six month or so patch. then they'll come back and fight about it later. >> eric cantor? >> i hope so.

look, i'm encouraged by the fact that the most conservative republicans are saying basically what ari said, that america cannot default on its debtings. >> chuck todd, do you -- ari fleischer said the deal has to be done. both sides, whether you're talking about mcconnell and boehner or president obama, they're getting calls every day from wall street saying, guys, what are you doing? >> well, that in many ways where the mcconnell plan came out of, right? borne out of it. it was this oh my god, what if they can't get it through the house. and you know, there's a difference. i had a member of the house leadership explain to me the difference between '95 and now. in '95, one cable channel and one influential talk show host. that's not the case now. in '95, leadership felt they could actually educate members. so they were doing the negotiations in the shutdown, they felt as if they would listen to the time that the leadership was gingrich, armey, john boehner.

this time they come in as one leadership aide said to me, with their own information, their own set of factings. and educating them on the debt ceiling has been much more difficult because they already believe they know. whether the facts are correct or incorrect, they believe they know coming in. and that's the largest difference between '95 and today and the real challenge john boehner faces. >> okay. >> chuck todd, who do you have coming up at 9:00 on the daily rundown. >> debbie wassermann schultz. and one of the gips that david brooks calls the head of club for growth. so, talking about that. >> interesting. >> the murdoch hearings start in the middle of my show, we see it at 9:30. >> thank you very much. >> on the show tomorrow, john goodman will be on the set. back with more "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. with the hotels.com 48-hour sale,

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all right, you're looking live at parliament. wow, that is going to be the day where the news is happening today. rupert murdoch and his son are going to be there. his rival at parliament this morning is about two hours from now. they're expected to testify in

front of the committee about the phone hacking scandal. >> here are new photos of him arriving at parliament. they're testifying again today and you can bet, mikka, that all of great britain is -- has stopped to watch this. david cameron, of course, cut short a trip in south africa to come back to great britain. everybody is involved. it's not just -- >> it's engulfed the police, politics. >> the political world, you're right, the law enforcement world. scotland yard under siege right now. >> uk police being questioned for the alleged prize to the case in executives for murdoch's company. will 1 1 people have been arrested since the allegations emerged including the former ceo of murdoch's news and national news who heads to parliament later today. that should be fascinating. also in the news, officials held talks from representatives

saying the high-ranking delegation delivered a, quote, stern message for the libyan leader to step down. according to "the washington post," the meeting took place in an undisclosed company last weekend. not a negotiation there's no plans for a sitdown in gadhafi. it follows the decision by the u.s. and others to the opposition party. libya is facing the worst political crisis since gadhafi seized power more than 30 years ago. >> pat buchanan, fascinating developments coming out of libya, the president, nato backs up against the wall. can't get this man out of power. what's the next move? >> i think he's going, joe. the steady attrition on the eastern front, they're in braga now. they've moved out of the east and moving to the center a bit. i think gadhafi is going to go. they've cut off the money, they turned the money over to the rebels. i think the problem is the attrition of his forces that are

not being replaced but i think it will take a while. it's taking a lot longer than the president or any of the nato folks anticipated. especially the brits and the french who were not prepared for a long war when they got us in to this thing. >> coming up, he says president obama is scaring seniors to get his way in the debt ceiling debate. we're going to be joining the republican senator from wisconsin, ron johnson, next. ♪

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wake up to the fact they're playing a game of political chicken with the entire global economy. they must wake up soon. >> this is a pivotal week for

america. two years of reckless spending and debt have brought us to the point of crisis. we'll see how the americans with the elected representatives decide to resolve it. >> joining us on capitol hill, republican senator from wisconsin. senator ron johnson. senator, thank you for being on the show this morning. >> thank you for having me on. >> you sent a letter to the president, a sharply-worded letter, accusing him among other things of scaring seniors in the debt ceiling debate. is that really true? is he really doing that? how can you say that? >> he has been scaring seniors. the first about tea party folks. we're portrayed as being crazy, we're not. i'm from oshkosh, i started working at the age of 15 as a dishwasher. i've been building a manufacturing business in oshkosh for 31 years. i didn't run for the u.s. senate because i wanted to be a senator. i ran for the senate because i love this country and we're

bankrupting it. i get to this town. i noa wa is broken. i see business as usual here. but now we're witnessing business as usual on steroids. and it's bankrupting this nation. that's -- that's my concern here. that's my problem. >> senator, that's my letter. i'm asking a question. you say here, you said you've been engaged to a theater. a dangerous game of political chicken. now you're playing your trump card, threatening america's most vulnerable citizens. first of all, isn't your party responsible or at least halfway so for the gridlock? and at this point the -- well, at this point, honestly, a reason for everybody to be alittle bit disappointed that a discussion and a debate that we've known about and a deadline that we've known about for months has come to this. >> mikka, let's look at the facts. love it or hate it, the

republican house passed a budget that people can take a look at, pick it apart, and bait it. if the president was serious, he would have put a serious budget or shown that to us back in february. he didn't. his budget would have added $12 trillion to the nation's debt. it would have continued further the bankrupting of this nation. and now he's engage in the process, finally on a personal basis, about three weeks ago, that's not being serious. and that's our problem. you know, all of the stuff that's happening behind closed doors, secret meetings. we should be debating this in public. where's his plan. joe, last week, i was watching the show, you know. he asked the question -- show me one hard vote that the democrat has taken to solve the debt and deficit issue. show me one plan. in detail on -- in writing, on paper. show me the plan. we don't have it. i'm a member of the senate. i have not seen a plan. i hear about it in the news, i hear about it leaked to reporters. that's not being serious.

if you're serious about some of these problems, show us your plan. >> mike barnicle. >> senator, did you remember when you first bought your home? senator? >> i can't -- i can -- >> do you remember buying your first home? >> sure, sure i do, mike. >> did you ever compromise or negotiate on the price with the -- with the then owner of the home? >> see, mike, i'm happy to work with anybody who serious about fixing the problem. but the fact of the matter that the president comes to the table three week before -- a month before the deadline, and insists on raising taxes, and let's face it, he couldn't raise taxes when his party was in total control of the government. now he's -- >> let's talk. >> i'm willing to work with anybody who's going to negotiate in good faith. >> let's talk about raising taxes then. >> let's talk about closing loopholes. i'm happy to close loopholes. show me the real loopholes, the real deal. >> how about this one. >> that's what they're talking

about. >> how about this one, senator. take this back to main street in oshkosh and ask the people you encountered in the main street in oshkosh. hedge funds. a lot of money. billions of dollars. you get taxed capital gains rate, 15%. why not tax it as income? >> mike, has the president proposed that? is it on a piece of paper? >> why don't go. >> can i take a look at it? >> why don't you propose it. >> because first of all we haven't passed a budget in the united states senate for two years. the democrats are in total control of the senate. the house did pass a budge. the democrats simply refused to put their plan on the table because they don't want to have the american people see what their plan is. their plan primarily is to raise taxes. but, again, i'm willing to work with anybody. i'm willing to negotiate. i'm willing to eliminate loopholes. most of my colleagues are willing to eliminate loopholes. show us what they are? they here not willing to show

us. they demagogue issues. $3 spending for every increase in taxes? what does it do? smoke and mirrors in cuts that are going to occur 12 months in the future, that's not a serious plan. show us a serious plan. do it in the regular order. to think, to think, to think that we can actually, you know, prepare a budget and negotiate a budget, a $3.7 trillion a year budget behind closed doors with a few folks doing it? it's absurd. it's silly, it's crazy. >> instead of a serious plan, we're going to show you a serious person, though, senator. sam stein in washington. sam? >> thank you. senator, just a quick question because obviously this is being done behind closed doors. obviously our discussions about a grand bargain and a fallback plan that your leader mitch mcconnell is crafting. is raising the nation's debt ceiling enough of an importance to you that you would be willing to vote for for a compromise or are you going to wait and see, read the plans and possibly reserve the right not

to vote something simply because you haven't seen it and not given enough time to consider it? >> what i've been pushing behind the scene, trying to get them to pass a -- >> that's not my question. >> listen, that actually would solve the problem. i've always felt, if we're really going to prevent america from going bankrupt, it's a two-step process. first we have to instill the fiscal discipline. the hard spending caps. i think honestly in the end we need a constitutional amendment to limit the size of government and --. that's not my question. >> but that is what we need to do. anything else, all these other negotiation, secret thing, commissions, that's business as usual. again that has been bankrupting america. we've got to step back from that. we've got to instill physical discipline. actually cuts spending -- >> it's not an answer t. is the answer to solve the problem. it is. >> in the senate. >> pardon me? >> it's not going to pass --

>> only because we haven't been given an amount of time to show the american people. pass a short-term bill for a month to talk about cut, cap and ball. i think it's reasonable and the american people will support it. >> that's not what they're discussing behind closed doors. just discussing it now. just like you discussed -- cap cut and balance is just proposed right now. >> only because these secret negotiations stalled everything else. we should have been talking about this for months. i've been pushing it for moss, unfortunately only being passed right now. give it a month of further debate. i think it's the solution. >> all right. we've got to leave it there. senator ron johnson, thank you very much for being on the show this morning. >> yes, ma'am. >> we'll be right back with "morning joe."

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unless the president gets off of his absolute obsession with raising tax did she say- >> the obama administration's continued obsession with raising taxes. >> obsession to raise taxes. we need jobs in the america and you're not going to get them as long as the president of the united states has this tax obsessions. >> he is obsessed. that explains his new cologne. taxes. take a live look at new york city. we are in los angeles, though, this morning and back with us in new barnicle, pat

buchanan and -- >> mike barnicle, a lot of pointing finger, back and forth. is this deal going to get done? >> we talk endlessly about the debt limit. i want to talk about the patience limit and that's the patience of the american public that has run out long ago on this people in washington who can't figure out. you got to get something done, get it done. >> and pat buchanan, there is a broing center and washington is creating a growing center. i wrote an op-ed in politico. tore both sides up. i have nerve her a more positive response, and it's because people are disgusted on both sides by republicans and democrat that work with the system that seem to promote this type of failure. you can go back to your corners and say, boy, i really beat the hell out of the other side. >> that's right, joe. the poll showed washington is in -- the president is high but

not high himself and the perception is that united states and a great crisis in going on in europe and in america, we're approaching one, is unable to do anything, but i do think something's going to get done. boehner and cantor met with the president secretly on sunday at the white house. i think they're moving ahead. >> harold ford, will we get a deal? >> i think we will. a contrast, mike barnicle was here and you appreciate them, baseball analogies. think about the guy that call jeter's ball. he gave the ball back and we praised him. in was a time in culture where you would have a greater appreciation for so much of this, when this was just the right thing to do. we wouldn't have applauded anyone. you give the ball back. if you caught a ball of mickey mantle's and given the ball back, it's a record ball. here we have democrats and republicans, and largely republican freshmen, unwilling.

the right thing to do for the country is accept a deal that will reduce spending for the long term and ensure the debt limit is raised and ensure we don't face the potential catastrophe some argue and warn about in terms of us having our credit rating downgraded. >> major garrett, let me ask you, the president has to understand, his people have to understand, despite these short-term flash poles that in the end, regardless of the intransigence of the republican front, he will be judged for not getting a deal done. these freshmen may lose elect n elections across the country, but so, too, will his brand, washington's brand. it hurts everybody if they don't do a deal. >> there are standard political risks and economic risks. this is the first time i've been in washington with economics causing problems for the country. usually it's for politicians. now politicians are causing an

economic problem with the country with volatility and unease. you saw the stock markets in both europe and the united states. people are beginning to wonder, is a deal going to be done? i think a deal will be done. you'll see this week, the house vote on the plan it will go to the senate and die. democrats won't take it up. proposal votes in the senate all of which will be cass stenlisth mcconnell and reid try to fashion votes in the senate, arrive with political velocity in the house. as the deadline approaches, and house republicans are going to have a very big choice. they picked this fight with the president for a reason. to say the debt limit is not going to be raised unless we do something on the deficit projections now and in the future. but the house republicans, the problem is they never answered affirmatively in a politically sailab ablabl ablabl ablabl aba should be. that's not good enough in

american politics. you have to have a plan that can pass both chambers and the president can sign. >> the question is, nicole what is the republican position right now? the theme of last week, republican leaders on in the house. guys i like very much personally. i've been a champion of paul ryan, back from the time i met him in 1994. but we ask, what do you want? and their position was, it's not enough to close the tax loopholes. we've got to actually cut tax rates, income tax rates for individuals and corporations. that's not going to happen in 2011, and they know it's not going to happen. i say, okay. let's say you got that done. would that be enough? then paul ryan said, no. we need a fundamental transformation of medicare and social security. that's not going to happen. not with a democratic president, and a democratic congress, and they know that. i mean, i understand edmund

burks' been dead for a few centuries, but at the same time -- this was said last week. there has to be some realism on the republican be side injected into this debate. get what you can get. $3 trillion in cuts for $1 trillion in closing of tax loopholes. what is the republican position right now? what do they want to make this deal happen? >> you know, i listened to voices like senator tom coburn in the senate. someone with, i think, pretty sterling conservative credentials and i think if you listen to him talk about his willingness, you know, up to about five to seven days ago, to support closing some of those loopholes which is what the obama white house was talking about, he always thought that would be accompanied by a lowering of those corporate, and personal, tax rates. what we have, a classic failure to communicate. i think the obama white house was saying one thing, the republicans were hearing

another. strikes me, nerve verify i seen a debate disintegrate from on so high to so low. ten days ago they talking about a historic deal with a generation impact in cutting the debt, raising the -- doing so much. now we're talking about doing the bare minimum. this is why people are disgusted with washington. and no more arbiters in washington anymore. that's two. our policymakers and our politicians are talking about bringing the economy to the brink, and people hardly believe them. and that is really frightening. >> depressing. >> pat buchanan, when i was in congress, i'm say it, when were you in politics, you and i always had the luxury of having sort of the old guard republican party that we could kick around, but at the end of the day would drag us to the table, on our side, and say, okay, okay. we're going to give these conservative cuts and in exchange we'll let you play bridge to the democratic party.

there -- that does not exist in washington, d.c. anymore. you've got 90 or so freshmen running around, you've got michele bachmann leading in a lot of presidential polls. the republican establishment is dead. you've said this for some time, but this is where it lands us two weeks from an economic disaster. who's going to pull everybody together on the republican side? >> you know, in a way, joe, i blame the president. the president did brilliantly in december. he walked in, harry reid, get out of the way. you're not going to get the republicans to go along with raising taxes. give them that. i'm going for don't ask, don't temperature, and t tell and the president of the united states won six out of ten at the end of the year. should have looked at the republicans. got a tea party problem, they're not raising taxes. go to boehner and cantor, say give me some biden spending cuts and give me the debt ceiling and let's get this thing done.

they could have done that four weeks ago i think, but they kept figuring, let's beat up the tea party until they give way and they're beating on guys that aren't going to give way. >> let me ask you a question, major. is anybody here struck by the fact we've been carrying on about the debt limit, you've indicated, three, four, five week fls a country where people are upset with the jobs picture? you don't hear people standing up in washington going on three, four, five weeks about unemployment. >> not in a way you would expect. two missed recovery summers. a recovery that didn't materialize. this summer, yet to materialize. may be turning in the wrong direction. for those tea party and white house republicans they believe there is a larger economic context to this fight. that's one of the reasons they're locking in. look, if we don't deal with this problem now, if we don't cut spending from one perspective, our economic destiny is going to it be less optimistic than it is

now. >> by the way, major, they are correct. that's one of the real problems here, is that if a bigger deal is not done, and than say the mcconnell deal, it pushes it down the road and blames the president, we've got serious, serious economic consequences with the european union basically in flames economically. >> the front page of "the journal echo" reinforces joe's point, and makes the point that major made. here we are in the united states, pat. we're actually forcing -- the united states congress is creating this unnecessary challenge. now, i can respect you blaming the president. i can't agree with you, your facts are off. look back at 2010 after the election, it was obama who stepped forward and said, look, i'm going to extend the bush tax cuts. extend the pay role tax cut. extend unemployment, do the don't ask, don't tell. that was a lot to get done. now, obama made a change. why is it that tea party

republicans are unwilling in the face of an offer to cut debt spending by $4 trillion can't accept a three for one exchange. three dollars of spending cuts and less than a dla actuollar t? philosophically we said yesterday, house republicans decided to protect the wealthiest of america. if that's your position -- >> you can beat them to death if you wanted. >> that's the fact. >> it's not the facts, it's realityy. look at the president of the united states and say these guy, intransigent. we have to bypass them and do what we have to do. failed to do that. just kept beating them up and beating them up and beating them up. >> in america, come on. >> you can call it un-american, but he beat those guys to a pulp. >> the president not being born in america is a -- let's grow up. >> realize what you're dealing with harold. >> what are you dealing with? people more interested in ideology than governing. >> they believe that, look, you

are prescribing something that will kill the country if you raise taxes and are not going to do it and deal with that reality. >> so the reality is that you've got hedge fund guys. >> right. >> their income is taxes capital gains at 15%, paying less a percentage in taxes on their enormous wealth. >> you know how you deal with that, mike? >> how? >> get this deal done and go to boehner and those guys and say go after the hedge fund guys get rid of these thing. drop rates the way you want and get rid of all this garbage. you did it with a republican with you. >> we can govern. >> you can govern. >> that's a frightening thought. that is a frightening thought. >> i just got a little sick. >> two old guys in the balcony on "the muppets ". >> doing a little better. we'll continue to hear the voices out of washington as well as read a little of your piece which is really good this week. first, before we go to a break, there are new developments surrounding the scandal threatens rupert murdoch's media

empire. >> can you believe it? >> unbelievable. >> this story keeps growing. >> yeah. it's sort of engulfing different facets of the world and you can't imagine it wouldn't come to the united states in this way. >> a guy shows up dead. jude law is now a part of this in a serious angle that brings this scandal to the united states. >> well, first, rupert murdoch and his son are preparing to appear before parliament today. police arrested seven people since the hack and bribery allegations emerged including the former ceo of "the news of the world" group, rebekah brooks who heads to parliament today. uk police also questioned by parliament. they are under scrutiny for failing to investigate previous allegations and hearings come as the "new york times" reports aides close to the murdoch family spent years and millions of dollars covering up wrongdoing at the now dedunks "news of the world." the "times" cites dozens of

former and current news corps employees who say "news of the world" paid police for information, and in another new twist to the story, a former "news of the world" reporter and the scandal's first named whistle-blower was found dead yesterday. an ongoing investigation but police say the death is "not suspicious." the "guardian" newspaper is reporting that british police found a bag in the trash near rebekah brooks home saying it contained a computer, phone and paperwork. the "guardian" says detectives are examining the bag and cnbc reports that murdoch is considering stepping down as news corps ceo. cnbc says he could be replaced by current chief operating officer chase carey. meanwhile, standard & poor's now says that it may cut the company's credit rating citing increased business and reputation risks. the agency's warning comes as news corps stock drops to a six-month low. >> can you believe this?

to follow-up on this jude law story. >> yeah. >> back in 2003 when he was filming a movie over here, his phone -- >> there are allegations that his voicemail was hacked into -- n. new york. >> and the very information on the voicemails ended up public. >> he's talking about a lawsuit and, of course, we also get reports yesterday that they've been paying out millions and millions of dollars over the past five, six, seven years settling these cases quietly. of course, a lot of allegations going on, but this allows the justice department to bring this investigation to the united states and at that point, it really does explode. and i guess the question is. >> right. >> pat buchanan, you've been in the press for a very long time. you have talked about how this is, for a lot of people on the left -- even supporters of rupert murdoch would have to say, a guy who's been very nice to you through the years.

>> uh-huh. >> that it's going to be really hard for him to survive. >> joe, yes. he's been very gracious to me throughout the years and i like the man, but i'll tell you, no doubt, if it leaps the atlantic, a think the murdoch empire in great britain is coming down. if it leaps the atlantic into the united states it is in really big trouble and i feel sorry for murdoch going up against parliamentary committee, because it's going to be very, very tough on me. i don't know that he had anything to do with it. coming up next, is the cia helping to operate a prison in somalia? the nation's jeremy reveal what's he's uncovered. more on the news corps scandal's in just over an hour rupert murdoch and his son are scheduled to appear before british parliament in a highly anticipated hearing over the cell phone hacking and police scandal in britain. first to bill karins and check on forecast. >> deal with thunder with my must-read article of the day.

very moving article below the fold "new york times" in the. here it subpoena as weather becomes big story, tv forecasters play the hero. yes, i'm now here with your hero forecast every day on "morning joe." let's look at the heat wave forecast in the east. yesterday 95 in new york, or 92 today. just a slight chance of thunderstorms around d.c. and also philadelphia. the east, it's not quite as bad as it is in the midwest. the reason is midwest is where it's at, so much more humid. around minneapolis, kansas city, iowa, st. louis, almost unbearable during the day today and over the day tomorrow. that's headed for the east coast eventually. look at st. louis. how's this for an extended forecast? 100, 100, 100 right through friday. on saturday, maybe get lucky maybe hit 98. this historic summer of heat. you're watching "morning joe" on this tuesday, brewed by starbucks.

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republicans react to it president's debt reduction plan including revenue increases sump as closing polls and rescinding taxes on the rich. the rich, or as the republican it's call them. >> job creators. >> it's making it difficult for the job creators. >> getting washington off the backs of the job creators. >> stopping increases on our job creators. >> republicans are no longer allowed to say that people are rich! you have to refer to them as job creator.

you can't even use the word rich. you have to say, this chocolate cake is so moist and job creator. my favorite comic book is "job creat creator-ee job creator." >> lame. >> here i am with job creator mika brzezinski. >> you're a job creator. >> you're a job creator. a fascinating story. talk about the drone lawyers against afghanistan, pakistan. you're reading a couple pieces in the "new york times." now it's spreading to all of these different countries and one that really jumped off the page for me, drone attacks in somalia. >> joining us, jeremy scahill, on the cia secret sites in somalia, jeremy, the secret training programs and secret prisons out of somalia is part of your reporting there.

how big a threat are these terrorist group there's? >> we should say first of all president obama campaigned on a promise to go up against these bush era policies declaring war on the world, running secret sites, torturing prisoners. deeply involved in an underground dungeon officially run by the somali national security agency, but their salaries are paid by the cia directly. in fact, one somali agent described thousand hairli ed ho and paid by u.s. agents and the u.s. is interrogating prisoners, including those rendered by the kenyan government, snatched off the streets in nairobi based on u.s. intelligence and taken to this secret prison and interrogated. it goes against the president's ordered he signed in january 2009 and against leon panetta's statement to u.s. personnel the u.s. had shut down all of these secret sites. >> jeremy, during your

reporting, remarkable reporting did you get pushed back from the white house? anybody in the administration or did they admit to it? >> first of all i contacted the central intelligence agency about this, and the u.s. government would only make available one official to speak with me and wouldn't be able to identify the name of that official or what entity they work for, only that they were familiar with this program and they tried to spin it and been spinning abc news and cnn, saying once or twice we've been interrogated or debriefed prisoners. we're not really rinning it. it wasn't they were trying to stop the story but spinning the story to make it sound like it's perfectly normal they're going to a bed infested prison where people never see the light of day interrogating prisoners. it's shameful how they've served as conveyor belts for a very

serious story about president obama's hypocrisy on the issue of secret sites and rendition. >> so, jeremy, let me ask you about -- >> wow. >> you brought up how the obama administration is continuing some bush era policies. let me ask you about the drone attacks. the drone attacks in afghanistan, in pakistan, in yemen. we've heard reports in somalia. as i read that, i guess it was last week, i said, wait a second. have we been going into all of these countries over the past decade with drone attacks, dropping bombs in countries where we haven't declared war? or is this a recent development? that sounds -- it sounds remarkable and disturbing to me. seems like a new -- we're opening a new chapter in the united states attacking of countries that we haven't declared war against? >> in late 2009, general petraeus, under president obama,

general petraeus issued and what's called an execute order that authorized u.s. special operations forces to militarily strike inside of any country where the u.s. determined a terrorist threat, and that was picking up on 2004 order that was issued under the bush administration. but, joe, think drone bombing campaign of countries off the battlefields began in 2002. the bush administration bombed yemen in november of 2002 targeting an alleged al qaeda leader. the obama administration dramatically increased drone attacks around the world. in yemen, cruise missile strike, drone strikes, now hitting regularly in somalia. june 23rd, a u.s. strike inside of is a maul yosomalia. the world is a battlefield nap was the bush doctrine. president obama lit harder in more countries with special forces command in the krocia th bush did. made policies mccain would not

have been able to push through because of pushback through some semblance of an anti-war movement. there's no anti-war movement that has any voice. obama attempted to legalize policies a lot of people on left were saying, were immoral and legal under president bush. >> mike barnicle, jeremy has precedented in 2002 the bush administration did this. ramped up since 2009. general petraeus, believes in the fight, but to me, regardless whether it's the bush administration or the obama administration it is profoundly disturbing that the united states of america is striking out with bombing attacks against countries that we haven't declared war against. that the president is horrific moving forward. >> well, you say, profoundly disturbing, joe, but i bet there's a substantial segment of

the country out there listening to jeremy, talking about secret sites in somalia, ongoing cl clandestine wars, saying good. send in battalions. >> we have to be a country operating under the rule of law or do we believe we're emperors and can act out on the world. no doubt there are dangerous -- s. there a report it's working? are they rounding up terrorists? >> no. in fact the cia program in yemen has been a disaster. one operation in a shabob, it's tied to mogadishu. tried one last year, the somalien were kill it's and they haven't tried since. >> why haven't they picked up on the stories, the media, on the renditions and drone strikes and put it on the front pages of the nation's press? >> well, i mean, i think part of the issue here is that there are

journalists -- i know of two journalists from major u.s. news organizations aware of the prison that's being used by the cia and aware of the secret cia site at the airport. they need to be asked the question, or asked it themselves internally, why don't you report on these things? >> who are they? >> i'm not going to name those journalists because they told me this in confidence. >> you want publications? >> major publications. i won't cite them because it was told to me and there are fights in the newsroom. >> what it sounds like, dr. t. saying, look, this is a left wing guy from the nation, he's hyped this whole thing up and there's really not that much to it. >> spent nine days in the most dangerous city in the world, interviewing -- >> i'm not denying you did. the lack of response from the major media and cia and the rest of it suggests they're dismissing what you've done. >> i think a lot of people are asleep at the wheel. because it's president obama operating on faith that what

he's doing is right and lawful and that's just not the case. the fact is we are making more enemies around the world in these drone strikes and cruise missile attacks because we're killing a lot of civilians. for every bad guy, how many innocent civilians will be killed? there's going to be blowback and it's gosh to harbor security. >> you talk about not being dismantled but taking a hit. you were in east africa. where specifically is al qaeda the biggest threat to us right now? >> no doubt al qaeda for years has been attempting to recruit and build bases of operations in east africa. going all the way back to the 1998 embassy bombings of u.s. embassies in tanzania and nairobi, kenya. one of the major figures fagiole was kill wld i was in east africa accidentally at a checkpoint in somalia. clearly there are people on the ground, working with them in yemen. where much of the u.s. focus has been. al qaeda is a relatively small group and it is, there have been

attack against the united states that have been planned and plotted from yemen, but we are talking about a relatively small threat globally compared to a lot of other threats we face. namely our economic situation in this country and receipt responsible has been to use a sledge hammer in place of a fly swatter to deal with these problems but yemen and somalia clearly have been on the obama administration's radar for a long, long time, almost from day one and they've been hitting hard. >> jeremy's exactly right. we commented about it before on this show. had the bush administration engaged in the massive drone strikes that the obama administration had done, code pink would have shut down committee hearings in washington, the "new york times," "the washington post," most other major newspapers, cbs, abc, nbc, you name it, everybody would have been on top of this story, but i think jeremy's reporting, it's disturbing, what's going on

there, but the headline here really is that the anti-war movement on the left has been defanged by the election of barack obama and unlike george w. bush, this president gets a blank check on these type of activities from the press and from the left. >> what's so interesting is that under the bush administration, you barely needed the anti-war movement, because the "new york times" carried all of their water on the front pages of their paper every single day. and forget about the political appointees of the bush administration. the "new york times" often went toe to toe with the career intelligence officials and there was nothing they wouldn't put on the front page of the "new york times," nothing, irregaaregardlf the threat it represented tore intelligence officials around the world and in this country. so this is shocking to me. that's why i asked if it worked. sometimes if a program is wildly successful, then people are protected, but this response thaw got is so stunning to me. >> and also, when anyone flying

into mogadishu can see a cia base in full sight and a kid chew i chewing cud, believed they chew, there's where the cia base is you have a serious operational security problem and have to question whether or not anything you're doing there is effective when everyone, i'm just talking about guys on the street, in the market, they all know where the cia is. what kind of operational security do you have when i can walk in and with four hours of being there find two cia sites? >> fascinating, jeremy. >> thank you very much. remarkable reporting and i hope some of the journalists you talked to at major publications, win their battles inside the news room so the story can see the light of day and if the administration cares to contest it, maybe they can. as you said, sounds like they're admitting it by saying very little. >> why would president obama

turn those executive orders and turn around and use secretive -- the white house should be asked directly. isn't this a contradiction of the orders you issued with days of taking office? >> all right. fascinating. coming up, rupert murdoch scheduled to testify in parliament. a live report from london is next on "morning joe." [ female announcer ] the healing power of touch can be even more powerful, with precise pain relieving cream. it blocks pain signals fast for relief precisely where you need it most. precise. only from the makers of tylenol.

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38 past the hour. welcome back to "morning joe." british prime minister david cameron with new comments about the hacking scandal engulfing rupert murdoch's media empire. cameron saying it's important to get on with things that are important such as jobs, exports and crime. his remarks -- >> lots of luck. >> really. his remarks come as plmurdoch a his son prepare to testify from a parliamentary committee in about an hour and london's outgoing police chief denies knowing that murdoch's now defunct "news of the world" was involved in phone hacking. joining us live from london -- >> jim, a lot of hot water. not going to be able to push this one off, let's talk about

jobs. he's got to go there and answer how involved he was with the scandal. right? >> reporter: absolutely right. about t absolutely right, joe. people want to know all about his cozy relationship with the murdoch empire, with the news international executives. not the least of which, james murdoch and rebekah brooks. by the way, he saw both of them, are you ready for this, 26 times in the past 15 months. >> wow. >> 26 times. it's phenomenal. so, yeah. he's got a lot to answer. there may be some efforts on this side, he's here taking questions in that building behind me. he's cutting short his africa trip to do just that. there may be some effort to move towards something like jobs but it's going to come right back in his face. there's no question about it. this is the biggest story, i think i have seen in my years here. the electricity in the street

that the hack-gate fields all this, the drum beat rolling, it's amazing. my very first story i ever did in the business was watergate, and i've got those tentsiccals out there tinging again in a very similar way. >> you know, pat buchanan is on set and his tentacles were tingling for a different reason at the same time. i wanted to ask you about that. i would guess given the culture of great britain's politics, given the fact that everybody in london knows everybody, it is such a tight-knit community, at least in the, among the elites, i would guess the entire country has almost come to a standstill to listen to these hearings. how big is it over there right no? how focused is everybody? >> reporter: well, i mean, obviously, life is going on. it's july. it's the tourist season. there are a lot of distractions, but i can tell you that every

brit that i know is watching tv. they're certainly not in the parliament. there's only room in that room for 40 or 50 seats, but there are over four rooms with tv screens. these, joe, is must-see tv day for all of great britain and not just great britain, elsewhere as well, which explains why there's such extraordinary media coverage. the former deputy prime minister, john prescott put it as only he could put it. these are the three musketeers of the murdoch media empire. put that along with a phone hacking scandal appearing in that building today and you've got one heck of a story. >> 26 meetings between cameron and -- what do we know about that? >> well, we're only finding out about that, because david cameron when he watched his judicial and political investigations and inquiries on this to try to get at bottom of

this about ten days ago, he said that he would also publish and that also politicians should begin to do the same thing. in fact, he was going to try to make it a law, that all meetings of politicians with the press and with the police should be published, and he was going to make himself an example of that by exposing all meetings. whether they were coffee or lunches or dinners, or others and if you do the math, i haven't seen the exact document, but i'm told by colleagues if you do the math it is 26 meeting, not just with brooks and murdoch, but with other members of the empire, particularly "news international ". it gives you an idea of the collusion and joe's right. i mean, i spent a lot of years in patience. i went to school there. i worked there, and there was an extraordinary collusion between the media, the military and

industry, and business. they went to the same schools. they married the same women, almost. they're friends. they were from the same social circles, and you feel the same thing here in great britain, only replace the french by the english. that, what the opposition now is saying is that that has to change. if it does change, it's going to be a paradigm shift in this country and probably the only good that will come out of this scandal. >> got you. >> jim maceda, thank you very much. we'll be watching. we'll be right back. introducing the schwab mobile app. it's schwab at your fingertips wherever, whenever you want. one log in lets you monitor all of your balances and transfer between accounts, so your money can move as fast as you do. check out your portfolio, track the market with live updates. and execute trades anywhere and anytime the inspiration hits you. even deposit checks right from your phone. just take a picture, hit deposit and you're done.

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the red sox and royals, this game went 16 innings. naptime for most families.

one run scored. only barnicle was up for this. game tied 7-8. baitses jacked. double to right cloors them. same inning. bases loaded again. this time carl claufrd grawford. a little stage fright but he's coming along. and making it 12-7. 25 runs scored in this one. red sox win with two touchdowns that went 15-10, final. yankees versus rays. bases loaded again, top of the eighth. nunez, a possible double play. breaking things up. slide into second. good friend of -- >> yeah. >> after a while you talk like him nap put it in the ninth. tied at 4. yanks load the bases. martin draws the rbi walk. curtis granderson scores the go-ahead run and new york yankees win 5-4. they don't belong to anybody on this set. i'm a cubs fan and we got a red

sox fan. and a quick look at american league east. boston on top over new york by a game and a half. >> that's the way the world ought to be. >> we'll see. >> one thing is right, at least. >> boys of summer got plenty of time left. what else we got? >> guess who's going to be here tomorrow? the blues brother. >> john goodman right here on set. up next, the best of "late night." [ male announcer ] get ready for the left lane. the volkswagen autobahn for all event is back. right now, get a great deal on new volkswagen models, including the cc. and every volkswagen includes scheduled carefree maintenance. that's the power of german engineering. right now lease the volkswagen cc sport for just $289 a month. ♪ visit vwdealer.com today.

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do you know about my anti-virginity? >> what was up in the first half of the second movie, wasn't mentioned in the books but not in the any other movies? >> can you tell my mom to pick me up at 5:00? >> did you and has hermione ever do it? what is do it? >> yes, i feel very guilty. your mom has probably left you there by now -- >> no, i mean, have you actually not -- >> no! >> could i use my pac money to buy thousands of puppies and then offer free puppies for everyone who votes for the candidates -- >> you cannot give gifts over a

certain value to -- >> these puppies are not worth that much. >> the best thing to do is to give no gifts at all. then there's no question about whether there's some kind of quid pro quo? >> so nothing? >> that just moves the concern -- >> i got to do something. can you get rid of the puppies? just -- i don't know. they're -- get rid of them. forget them. put them in a sack, i don't -- >> no. >> just drop them off in the hallway or something. not me. don't cry. don't cry. are you happy?

>> don't -- stop them. don't let them do it. what? >> oh -- >> the rupert murdoch communications empire is in a lot of trouble, because "news of the world," the newspaper in london, has been accused of allegedly hacking in to phones, cell phones of other people and listening to messages and conversations. so tonight, ladies and gentlemen, even the royal family -- yep -- even the royal family. even the royal family. so tonight we have a little seg mant called "scandalous phone call of the night." >> hello? >> yes. is gelry there? >> i think you have the wrong number. >> oh, sorry. ♪ you know how i feel

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joe." it's time to talk about what we learned to. mike barnicle? what have you learned? >> that patrick j. buchanan is relieved phonegate wasn't around during watergate. >> amen. >> innicolle wallace, comes outn paperback, "eighteen acres"

comes out what have you learned? >> at least i wasn't hacked. >> exactly. pat buchanan what have you learned? >> post-murdoch, news corps, may be about to begin, joe. >> and what about you? >> nasa is a big friend of the "morning joe" family. way too early on thursday, the shuttle "atlantis" landing live. >> exciting. mika? what have you learned? >> that pat buchanan is not just a wealthy man. he's a job creator. >> schae job creator. >> and you know, mika, i learned, and that the media, there's a media blackout on the type of stories that won pulitzer prizes during the bush administration. >> interesting. >> i find that absolutely fascinating. paging dana priest. i wonder -- where the deign ma priest stories are these days? way to early. it's "morning joe."